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Difficulty of Hacks

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Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate the level of commitment people have placed into these hacks. Some of them are in fact beautiful. However I have noticed a trend.

They are too hard.

Does anyone really play test their hacks? I have tried 5 hacks and I the furthest I have gotten was the Super Mario Demo hack but only to the desert level and I cannot get past the 4th stage. I know the demo hack is hailed for it's complexity and there are other hacks that are simply put beautiful, but why do the hackers insist on making them impossible to play? The demo one I would love to play but it's too hard. In fact I find it impossible. The New Lands hacks? impossible. How is someone supposed to get past the 2nd stage? What am I supposed to do?

Isn't the idea in a game to enjoy playing it? Why then do most of these hacks frustrated the living hell out of me? I have yet to find one any better than the original and it has nothing to do with the way they look and everything to do with the way they play. If I can't get past a stage or see a way past a stage, I give up.

Maybe I'm not your target audience. I would just think that if the idea is come up with new Super Mario World games, the hackers would try and make their hacks playable and fun.

Nice work and all... but please... let's not go overboard in making these things virtually impossible to beat. [;)]
I think you've just had the misfortune to play the hardest hacks because I haven't spotted a single hard one (apart from the likes of TSRPR).


That, or you just suck at playing them (no offense meant).
I personally try to set my hack's initial difficulty at "around where SMW left off." So, about as difficult as the special world near the beginning, and harder from there.



Ultimately, people who make SMW hacks tend to know the game very well, and thus when playtesting, find things easier than most. That's why the high difficulty.
I have a feeling that my level of knowledge on the SMW game is about the same as most people here. I have played it and replayed it a good number of times and have even studying it as an example of flow and playability with the idea of coming up with a sequel. I think there is a difference between trying to get past a barrage of bullet bills over a series of Shao-lin Monk moves just to get past one section of a stage. If I remember right, the hardest level on SMW is the Special World where you are required to get the P-Ballons to get the end. I can't stand that level and dread it whenever I get to it knowing that I will be at this level for a while. But to make 50 levels that are harder than that? Umm.... [:o] [;)]

The example of The New Lands, stage 2 where the screen begins to scroll, you get Yoshi and suddenly you are confronted with a brick wall and a jump that result in suicide. So.... where's the Yoshi wings? I'm assuming that's what I need. Do I have to back to the beginning of the level? Where's the indication for that? So I'm assuming that's not the case. Jump above the bricks? Didn't work? Get the cape? Uh... couldn't find one and I tried all the blocks. No pipe exits. It's just you, yoshi and the brick wall and hop along the turtles. It's impossible which means I must be forgetting something I should have picked up. So where it is and what was it? It's another trend in a lot of these hacks, the fact I have to be clarivoyant and just know where things are. [;)]

Hard is fine. But of the hacks I have played I have noticed things I think should be included on the "don't do this" video

1) expect the player to just find that inconspicuous special item that gets them past the stage. Where's the text block with the hint or the hint in general? At least Zelda with it's hard as hell puzzles, gave you enough hints to solve them.

2) Jumps that require impossible odds. Sure I can jump through a barrage of Bullet Bills, but when that barrage includes 5 turtles, 6 flying fish, jumping from one brick to another brick through 4 flying turtles over the pirranha plants and around the spike balls and fireballs, whoa. [;)]

3) Level 1-1 or 1-2 is too hard. It's the first level. If the game supposedly gets harder and I can't even make that one jump which requires more skill than Jackie Chan, I give up knowing there's a God jump probably in Level 2-1. [;)]
Originally posted by monk
Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate the level of commitment people have placed into these hacks. Some of them are in fact beautiful. However I have noticed a trend.

They are too hard.


When I first started out, I always worked under the assumption that people wanted hacks to be harder than the original games or else people would get bored of it. Now, I don't think that necessarily has to be the case.

Originally posted by monk
Does anyone really play test their hacks?


I'm sure people do, but keep in mind the authors are biased toward their own work. Obviously, it's going to be easier for them as they know every single trick to beat their levels, but other players may think way differently. They also may not receive completely honest and genuine feedback from testers because often, hack authors have their "friends" on the site test it for them, which once again leads to biased criticism.

Originally posted by monk
Isn't the idea in a game to enjoy playing it? Why then do most of these hacks frustrated the living hell out of me?


Of course, but keep in mind no one's a professional game designer here, either. While I can't speak for anyone else, when I first started hacking, I used to love to make my hacks ridiculously hard with the specific purpose of frustrating the player. Everyone is different. Some genuinely try to make a fun experience for other players, while others just want to have fun making the hack themselves and are not concerned with all the rest.

Anyway, SMW hacks may not be what you're looking for. Reading through your comments, I can't really think of a hack to recommend for you.
I'd go with the levels starting similarily difficult to the original SMW with a rather steep difficulty curve.

But, when hacking SMW or playing hacks, you're obviously very familiar with the game and thus'll make things hard to get at least a bit of a challenge out of it. Plus you also got an emulator with save states, slowdown & rewind at your disposal if things are too hard for you.
by any ANY chance have you been getting your hacks from the kaizo submissions thread... or are you just new to smw because if youve played hacks from the hacks section it shoukdnt be hard at all... i mean i wiz through em

unless your downloading VIP1,2,3,4 , brutal mario, TSRPR

i cant think of any other hard hacks and to be honest the only truly hard one there is the vip series so i am puzzled on where u are finding these?
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Well two hacks I can name off the bat that are too hard is the Super Mario Demo World hack (which looks awesome but again it's way too hard) and The New Lands where I cannot get past level 1-2 because there is nothing to tell me what I need to do. The Demo World one was lots of fun, right up to the Level 4 with the two moving platforms. The only I can see to beat this level is by timing the platforms in such a way (which is perfectly) in order to make it through) Now again, I'm all for hard, but wow.

Again, a point here is, if you are going to make a level where there is a secret, it might be worth pointing that secret out in a rather hidden way. Even Demo world is guilty of this. Let's take the real version of SMW. There is one level at the last World (7) where the floor start to raise the moment you touch it. When the floor reaching the ceiling and the end you have a small lip to jump on. Most of time you are not paying attention to this since you are constantly moving right. But if stop for a moment and think to jump on it and move left, suddenly you find your key. It's a great secret area and it's not impossible to find. It just requires you slow down and take in your surroundings.

There is one secret in Demo World where you come out an exit only to go back into the exit for the secret exit. That's great but 99% of the people are not going to think to just move backwards suddenly. So why not place one of those arrow signs usually found at the goal posts and hack it to face the other direction? Again, subtle hint that makes figuring these things out fun.

I don't think this has anything to do with professional game development, such a little forethought. That is, if you have a secret in your level, especially if it's very difficult to find or to setup, nothing wrong in giving a hint from either coins, sprites, objects or the text box. Solving puzzles is fun. Trying to figure out if there is a puzzle then solving the puzzle with no leads is not. [;)]
Originally posted by monk
That is, if you have a secret in your level, especially if it's very difficult to find or to setup, nothing wrong in giving a hint from either coins, sprites, objects or the text box. Solving puzzles is fun. Trying to figure out if there is a puzzle then solving the puzzle with no leads is not. [;)]


Yes, I agree. Subtle hints are definitely helpful in finding secrets. I don't like blindly chasing secrets with little to no indication. I remember in one of the Luigi's Adventure hacks, there was one secret exit where you had to find a hidden pipe disguised as normal FG. There was no indication whatsoever that the area was suspicious, so the player essentially has to play a guessing game wandering around and pressing down everywhere until they found this hidden pipe. To me, that's not fun. The most satisfying secrets in levels for me are the ones that provide reasonable hints. I feel more satisfied when I figure out the hint and find the secret rather than aimlessly inspecting every inch of the level.
Originally posted by monk
If I remember right, the hardest level on SMW is the Special World where you are required to get the P-Ballons to get the end. I can't stand that level and dread it whenever I get to it knowing that I will be at this level for a while. But to make 50 levels that are harder than that? Umm.... [:o] [;)]

Ah yes, Tubular. I hated that level as a kid. However, if I go back and try it today, I can beat it every time.


It's not a matter of "you suck" like a couple others have said, it's a matter of most creators are arguably "too good" at the game. They get bored if they're not challenged. Tubular isn't a challenge anymore for more people than you might think.
I can enjoy both easy and hard hacks, and can somewhat stand the easier side of Kaizo, but I can't stand it when somebody pulls a trick such as the Torpedo Ted spinjumping area in one of the final stages of TSRPR. Tricks like that, in my opinion, are just stupid and unfair.

A lot of the hacks in the Featured Hacks section has decent difficulty curves, so I'd recommend digging around in there to see what you can find.
Good fucking bye.
The idea the hacks are from another site might be the case. I am playing Essence Star right now and that hack is just simply put...


A.W.E.S.O.M.E.
Originally posted by monk
The idea the hacks are from another site might be the case.

Yeah, we tend to have far higher standards than many other hacking communities out there. We're like the snobby aristocrats when it comes to SMW hacking, though I can't say I found demo world too hard... Just kinda boring.

Some of our featured hacks are really good. Keytastrophe, Bonni's quest, and Sunny Side world are some of my personal favorites that you may be interested in. Keytastrophe can get kind of confusing at points, but it doesn't have any of those stupid pixel perfect jumps or anything.
people tend to playtest their hacks with savestates haha. this was especially the norm when tspr1 and 2 and demo world came out.

now there's more of a trend towards making hacks where the difficulty is "normal"
That's great to hear.

I've played The Essence Star some more and h.o.l.y cow. whoever made that hack.... it's incredible. Best hack I have played yet and I love it. It's hard, but not too hard like I mentioned in my above gripes. Will definitely have to check the rest... after I beat Essence Star. Perfect blend of original, fun and difficult.

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Yeah, SMW hacks are generally more difficult than the original game.

I think the problem with this comes from the lack of a steady curve in difficulty. There is a fair number that either start up high and only get higher, start low but get high very quickly, start somewhere and be all over the place, and/or have sections that can be a complete game breaker.

Some authors tend to not think with a general populous in mind, considering that some hacks are unreasonable with some gameplay elements (trial and error, harsh punishments for simple mistakes, etc). Not to mention that they may not extensively playtest each level they make to minimize any game breakers from getting through, which obviously can put people off from playing your game.

The only thing I have an issue with are parts where it is completely unfair even after some trial and error.
Otherwise, bring on the challenge! If I get "Game Over" 0 or 92 times, I'm-a still savestateless (although I savestated in one hack, the slowdown was immense).
You should try SMW Hacks 101. It's really quite easy, and it's pretty fun to play too.
Definitely a step down from The Essence Star, but almost any other hack you play will be a step down from it, so you might as well start somewhere.
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The problem I've seen is that some hacks can be quite fair, but then there are some ridiculous spikes in difficulty. Mushroom Kingdom Meltdown 2 had a lot of this; the desert world was just very tough compared to most of his other worlds (until the later game), and there was a good deal of fake difficulty in that some stages were very long.

Probably the worst part of MKM2 was one of the final areas. Incredibly long, many difficult jumps, and I don't think there were any midpoints throughout the entire stage. The worst part of this stage? There were these insta-kill electric-beam pits of which the only way to cross them... was to jump off of Ninjis. This required luck in that if they didn't jump at the correct heights, you could easily die, and have to start the stage all over! As you can probably guess, I had to save-state to beat this level.
About this topic, i argued a lot. I made a crap for some hack due of this problem, because... well, yes, they had unfair difficulty. This cannot be hidden IMO.

Yes, people, since they tend to savestate, they also tend to make their hacks difficult. And excessive difficulty counts as stressful, IMO. I think (well, i THINK) excessive difficulty should be a removal reason. requiring savestates is not coherent.

Though, i played some hacks like Return to Dinosaur Land, it was easy, but i enjoyed it a lot, and it made me start a hack without changes.

The problem is that people should control their level design.
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